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« on: July 19, 2006, 09:11:22 PM »

I get my Kirker epoxy primer from them ( two gallons sprayable for $ 85 shipped to the door), abrasives, and tools too.

Just ordered a gallon of AF clear, which they tell me is the same as PPG Omni clear ( gallon and a half sprayable for $ 110 shipped to the door, even says PPG on the can ) , which I used on my 66 CDV and I know some autobody pros that say Omni clear is as durable as the $ 200 a gallon PPG top of the line stuff.

Check out their website, I haven't found any better prices anywhere.

http://www.smartshoppersinc.com/

I have a new small Redneck autobody job Saturday, will post pictures for your amusement.

Pooter  Grin of " Pooter's Redneck Autobody & Cadillac Emporium" fame. LOL

PS: got my street legal temp tires on my van today so the law won't bother me anymore, be awhile till I get my rims refinished and the new tires installed, I need the clear for the rim refinish, clear urethane is tough stuff, very durable, wetsanding that stuff on the 66 was no picnic.

I never learn, stick my neck out and expose myself and they bag me eventually. Typical Redneck, use some temp studded snow tires in July, Dooooooooooh  You really don't want to get to know those guys ( state troopers, sheriffs and deputies),  if you can help it, they are busy busting real criminals but you are fair game out on the road if you cross their path, just doing their job . By and large they have been very fair with me, when they cut you a break it is a victory for humanity, I live in one of the few civilized areas of the US, Maine, huge state with a small population, helps to keep the peace, and plenty of Rednecks with lots of firepower.  LOL





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« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2006, 09:42:26 AM »

I get my Kirker epoxy primer from them ( two gallons sprayable for $ 85 shipped to the door), abrasives, and tools too.

Was that trucked or UPS?

Which primer anyway? I still don't understamd the different types (like WTF is 2k ?).

Best I can tell the primer I have easy, free access too is like the Kirker 1315, as it's mixed 1:1 with laquer thinner.
It'd not and etching primer for sure, and wouldn't stick to the aluminum tail light housings.

From that site, I was wondering about the Clausen ALL-U-NEED Primer. The "Built-in guide coat" caught my attention, but it looks like a sandable, high build primer, self etching, and a sealer too.

I really thing the primer caused my problems on the trunk. It took me a few days to prime and prep after stripping it, and it was stored outside in the humid Miss. summer. The Omni base bubbled afew a week or two, but only on the outside. 2 years later the inside of the lid looks great Huh

But the outside had hundreds of bubbles that went to the primer. Looks like I'll need to srip the outside back to metal, and start over. Should I do the same to the inside? Know one has figured out the cause though. First though was opnce coat went on to soon, and trapped solvents, but woul that lift all the paint, or just the layers above that coat?

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« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2006, 10:01:24 AM »

I get my Kirker epoxy primer from them ( two gallons sprayable for $ 85 shipped to the door), abrasives, and tools too.

Was that trucked or UPS?

UPS, the truck price is minimum 250 lb.

Which primer anyway? I still don't understamd the different types (like WTF is 2k ?).

I use the Kirker Enduro prime, 1 part epoxy 1 part activator. 2K is anything that uses an activator, the only product I use without an activator is basecoat, the PPG top of the line bc uses an activator.

Best I can tell the primer I have easy, free access too is like the Kirker 1315, as it's mixed 1:1 with laquer thinner.
It'd not and etching primer for sure, and wouldn't stick to the aluminum tail light housings.

From that site, I was wondering about the Clausen ALL-U-NEED Primer. The "Built-in guide coat" caught my attention, but it looks like a sandable, high build primer, self etching, and a sealer too.

I really thing the primer caused my problems on the trunk. It took me a few days to prime and prep after stripping it, and it was stored outside in the humid Miss. summer. The Omni base bubbled afew a week or two, but only on the outside. 2 years later the inside of the lid looks great Huh

Paint failure is bad prep or misuse of the product.

But the outside had hundreds of bubbles that went to the primer. Looks like I'll need to srip the outside back to metal, and start over. Should I do the same to the inside? Know one has figured out the cause though. First though was opnce coat went on to soon, and trapped solvents, but woul that lift all the paint, or just the layers above that coat?

You really need to use the 2K primer and yes, moisture can be a problem, things have to be dry when you paint. Strip that panel down and use the 2K epoxy.


That high build stuff is for panels that need some serious filling and lots of block sanding.


HTH,

- P
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« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2006, 02:06:56 PM »

I really think the primer caused my problems on the trunk. It took me a few days to prime and prep after stripping it, and it was stored outside in the humid Miss. summer. The Omni base bubbled afew a week or two, but only on the outside. 2 years later the inside of the lid looks great Huh
Paint failure is bad prep or misuse of the product.

Quote
But the outside had hundreds of bubbles that went to the primer. Looks like I'll need to srip the outside back to metal, and start over. Should I do the same to the inside? Know one has figured out the cause though. First though was opnce coat went on to soon, and trapped solvents, but woul that lift all the paint, or just the layers above that coat?

You really need to use the 2K primer and yes, moisture can be a problem, things have to be dry when you paint. Strip that panel down and use the 2K epoxy.

So why would you think that the 2 panels have such different results?

The outside and inside were prepped the same and the sprayed. Best I can remember I prepped the inside, filpped it over and did the outside. This took several evenings. The I sprayed the inside, flipped it, and sprayed the outside. The was done one Saturday. The difference in result is what confuses everyone.

I have to work outside, and there is not enough enclosed stroage space, so every thing stays out overnight. My trunk, the cars he's working one, everything.  Never seen any of his work do this either.

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« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2006, 05:58:16 PM »



"So why would you think that the 2 panels have such different results?

The outside and inside were prepped the same and the sprayed. Best I can remember I prepped the inside, filpped it over and did the outside. This took several evenings. The I sprayed the inside, flipped it, and sprayed the outside. The was done one Saturday. The difference in result is what confuses everyone.

I have to work outside, and there is not enough enclosed stroage space, so every thing stays out overnight. My trunk, the cars he's working one, everything.  Never seen any of his work do this either."

Okay , lets talk paint here. If you have a car with a decent substrate ( the paint ) but it is faded and crummy if you will , but solid and not cracked like an old lacquer paint job or peeling etc. you can scuff and shoot new paint on top. A paint job is only as good as what it is going on top off. For a modern day car with bc / cc this would be like a ten year old car that has seen minute damage from road sand/debris, needs a few parking lot dents filled and the clearcoat is worn from car washes, etc.

For a car as described above after any dings are filled you would most likely shoot a 2K ( two stage primer surfacer ) which dries quickly and then wetsand the car with 400 grit scratch for a solid color and 600 for a metallic. You need something on top of the filler besides topcoat to seal it.

Epoxy is a two stage catalyzed paint, you said you used an epoxy that was just thinned with lacquer thinner ? No such thing.

Epoxy will work as a primer surfacer but you have to let it cure, takes a few days or a week, the hot sun will accelerate the cure time and it will sand like a 2K primer surfacer and that is what I do.

For a bare steel strip job , after that I will do any required dent filling, blocksand and shoot two coats of epoxy, let that cure, blocksand again and kiss the filler in a few spots, then shoot two more coats, let that cure and blocksand again, always progressively using finer grit paper as i go through the stages, I have pictures posted here of this process on the 67 Rat Rod and that is how the pros do it.

I always blow off the panel with compressed air and use prepsol to remove any contaminates, let it dry thoroughly and then spray, never a problem.

My hood had a massive dent and the trunk lid had a few dents, they will finish up like new now after all that work.

The mechanical aspect of a car is most important but we want them to look nice too, as they should.

I have been around this trade for awhile but not in it but I know what it is all about, not cheap to hire the trade nor should it be, but you can learn and do it yourself, just like me with my mechanical repair work, and after all it is a hobby and you can save $$$ on your daily ride but most importantly you know it is done right.

Nobody minds forking over their hard earned $$$ to a bodyshop but it's good to know what you are getting for that $$$. Most of what they do is collision work and the customer just wants their car to look as before the collision, for them it is just a transportation device.
Pooter Grin








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« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2006, 11:00:35 AM »

Epoxy is a two stage catalyzed paint, you said you used an epoxy that was just thinned with lacquer thinner ? No such thing.

No, I said it was like the Kiker 1315. listed under "ACRYLIC LACQUER HIGH BUILD PRIMER SURFACER". Never said it was epoxy.

And I'm thinking that was part of the problem. It either absorbed moisture, or some of the reducer from the paint leading to the bubbles. The other though was insufficient flsh time between coats.  Just seams strand the the outside  did this and the inside didn't.

Both were stripped to bare metal, DA'd smooth @ 220, built up with primer, and sanded to 320 before getting 3-4 coats of the Omni base.
Primer and sanding was probably 5/6 coats with sanding in between. The only thing I did different than John (the guy whos place I was at) normally does is the 320 sand. He usually stops at 220 before the base, as his customers won't pay for the extra labor.

Beyond that, the inside was hand snadwed a lot, since the DA cannot get into the tight spots. Neither side was cleared, since thus was a temp job before the full car single stage job. I figured I could scuff this coat and sand to 400 when ready. The engine work set me back a bunch, since I had neither time nor funds to do the body work while doing the engine.

So here are some pictures.
First the top, the grey spots are where the paint bubbles were sanded off.


Zoom in on a bubble that hasn't been sanded through yet.


Here's the inide of the trunk, which hasn't bubbled



And, just for fun, here the right rear damage. You can see the holes from the dent puller, and how thich the body filler was. This is very old damage though. The original color was easy to find. In fact if you look to the front of this section, you can see the filler, correct color (ontop of the red primer, then a tinted blueish primer, then the last paint color.


This shot show how far up the filler goes. If you look here, you cn see the body line from the door handle that marks the bottom of the "fins".


s you can tell, there's a lot to be done. I'm hoping I can get a dolly on the inside to hammer that panel out better. Not sure yet if the bracing will be in the way.
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« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2006, 11:52:02 AM »

Okay, in the first place you have to use  either epoxy primer or etch prrimer on bare steel, the manufacturer's won't stand behind the product otherwise.

I follow the spec. sheets and they tell you how to use their other products to perform as required but that was not the cause of your problem.

http://www.autobodydepot.net/depotdocs.html

You should weld up those holes, back up the hole with a piece of copper and use a mig welder.

I've been using the shortstrand filler because it is waterproof, then I use ultra light bondo for a skim coat and polyester putty for minor scratches on the final coat, great product, it has the consistency of toothpaste and spreads out real nice.  On top of a weld I use longstrand filler.

I would assume you had moisture in the primer because it is humid down there, or your prepsol hadn't flashed off enough, only thing I can think of. If you had some type of contaminate that caused the problem you would have had the dreaded fisheyes.

BTW: they have special products or primers for finishing bare aluminum.

They all have an 800 # tech support staff too.

Pooter  Roll Eyes

« Last Edit: July 21, 2006, 01:14:30 PM by Porter » Logged
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« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2006, 01:33:03 PM »

Okay, in the first place you have to use  either epoxy primer or etch prrimer on bare steel, the manufacturer's won't stand behind the product otherwise.
I follow the spec. sheets and they tell you how to use their other products to perform as required but that was not the cause of your problem.

Not sure what to make of the sheets since it's all PPG products, and I expect the DuPont sheet to be all DuPont, and the same with Sherwin Williams. Since you said you're using the Kirker primer you are not following the sheets.

If you cay that the Kirker is equal to the other guys epoxy primer, rhen I followed the sheet for MBC (base I used) which says that MP-181 (1k Primer Surfacer), MP-281 (1k Lt. Gy. Primer Sufacer) and MP-210 (1k High Solids Primer). What I used was another brand (probably Sherwin Williams) equalivent to MP-181. Currently he's buying the Nason equalivent.
That's based on info like here.
"The 181 is a lacquer-type surfacer"
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« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2006, 01:52:55 PM »

I have used Sherwin Williams epoxy and it was the same as the Kirker, when all is said and done epoxy has the same chemical composition and I will never have any problem applying any type of paint on top of the Kirker. I'm not doing collision work for insurance companies with any type of guarantee but I don't expect any paint failure with my work.

Lots of shops don't use the products properly and they do have paint failures years later but the customer has most likely gotten rid of the car by then.

Likewise I know some an autobody pro that uses different brand clears on top of different brand basecoats without any problem, Omni clear on top of the topline PPG bc or Transtar clear for example.

He claims he never has any paint failure but he stands behind his work 100 %.

I'm using Kirker epoxy, Sherwin bc and AF clear on top of my small project tomorrow.

The lacquer primers are an old tech antiquated product that no professional shop will use anymore, trust me on this one, plus the lacquer has no moisture resistance at all and will fail the easiest down the road. It dries rock hard and has no flexibability and will crack many years later, just like an old Cadillac with the alligator finish cracked lacquer.

All brands have spec sheets and of course they want you to use all their products for everything.

I carefully follow the proper mix ratios, use the right temp activators and reducers, etc.

I prefer the high temp stuff even if it is a cooler temp range, the paint just flows out better, sets up slower, I'm not a production shop and in a hurry.

- P


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« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2006, 03:26:48 PM »

I got a new toy today from Harbor Freight, my first gravity feed gun, been using their cheapo suction feed mini guns for years and they atomize the paint just fine but you can spray every ounce with gravity feed.

Still using my Binks 15 year $ 300 suction feed guns, they really atomize the paint well, my compressor is too small for an HVLP gun.

BTW, if you go to the link above they are practically giving away expensive old Sharpe suction feed guns just to get rid of them, a real bargain at Smart Shoppers.

Pooter





* mini spray gun.jpg (62.88 KB, 660x495 - viewed 187 times.)
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« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2006, 05:38:21 PM »

I got a new toy today from Harbor Freight, my first gravity feed gun, been using their cheapo suction feed mini guns for years and they atomize the paint just fine but you can spray every ounce with gravity feed.
Still using my Binks 15 year $ 300 suction feed guns, they really atomize the paint well, my compressor is too small for an HVLP gun.

Does HF have any full size gravity feed guns that aren't HVLP? Not sure the setup here is enough for HVLP either. I know he has a gravity feed gun, but he doesn't like it, and seldom uses it. But I know zilch about it to check the "proper" setup.

Quote
BTW, if you go to the link above they are practically giving away expensive old Sharpe suction feed guns just to get rid of them, a real bargain at Smart Shoppers.

I'm, going to show him that. I think he "good" gun is a Sharpe. He might be interested in a few spares.

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« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2006, 05:44:14 PM »

Here's one of my trusty old Binks spray guns, I know guys that swear by these guns, you can't get replacement tips anymore either.

They really atomize the paint nice, lays down smooth without any orange peel, the transfer efficiency is about 50%, the HVLP guns are mandated by law 65 % but Devillibis has a complaint gun, non HVLP but legal 65 % transfer efficiency, like $ 250.

That is what I would buy and I hear they will out perform the Sata gun for $ 450 a throw and their service and parts thing s*cks.

- P


* Binks gun.jpg (35.05 KB, 660x495 - viewed 169 times.)
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« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2006, 06:08:48 PM »

I got a new toy today from Harbor Freight, my first gravity feed gun, been using their cheapo suction feed mini guns for years and they atomize the paint just fine but you can spray every ounce with gravity feed.
Still using my Binks 15 year $ 300 suction feed guns, they really atomize the paint well, my compressor is too small for an HVLP gun.

Does HF have any full size gravity feed guns that aren't HVLP? Not sure the setup here is enough for HVLP either. I know he has a gravity feed gun, but he doesn't like it, and seldom uses it. But I know zilch about it to check the "proper" setup.

Quote
BTW, if you go to the link above they are practically giving away expensive old Sharpe suction feed guns just to get rid of them, a real bargain at Smart Shoppers.

I'm, going to show him that. I think he "good" gun is a Sharpe. He might be interested in a few spares.



I've been around the block with this spray gun stuff a few times, the biggest problem with a suction cup gun is spraying a horizontal surface without spilling paint from the vent hole, I have a dripless cup that isn't shown on that picture of my Binks gun.  If you don't keep the gun perpendicular to the surface with metallic paint you will get "tiger stripes", I have a few on my 66 hood that nobody notices but me but the remedy is to lay a "fog" coat last afterwards. I'll be the first the one to tell you spraying paint requires skill but it isn't rocket science, practice makes perfect.

The first HVLP guns that came out sucked but they improved and then became mandated by law in some states, specifically Kalifornia.

For all I know I could get arrested by the EPA for using my old Binks suction feed guns, funny stuff, like I'm destroying the ozone with my 15 % non compliance transfer efficiency.

I have been using the cheapo HF mini gun for years and they spray beautifully, would only buy their cheapo full size guns for primer and I believe they have  non HVLP gravity feed guns.

Smart Shoppers shows a Sharpe mini gun conventional gravity feed  for like $ 65 and that would have been better but i have to try out the HF $ 15 gun I bought just for laughs, probably sprays nice.

I use my old ones for spraying gunk or phosphoric acid, etc. at some point you just toss them, they wear out.

Pooter
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« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2006, 09:46:02 AM »

Well, I was right. His good gun is a Sharpe. He'll probably order 2 of them from SS. (2 tip sizes)
Thanks for the heads up. I'm always trying to find him a deal since he lets me use his tools and space.

He has a DeVilbiss FinishLine gravity feed gun, which he recently bought.  He dosen't like it though. Trouble getting it to spray "right".
I cannot find where I wrote the model number down to look it up thigh. Will do that tonight.  I though it did pretty good, when I dropped the prssure down, which makes me suspect it might be HVLP. Only used it for primer though (high solids, laquer primer).

What's the difference in the min-gun and the full size gun, that make you steer clear of the ones HarborFreight has while using their mini-gun?

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« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2006, 10:04:46 AM »

Well, I was right. His good gun is a Sharpe. He'll probably order 2 of them from SS. (2 tip sizes)
Thanks for the heads up. I'm always trying to find him a deal since he lets me use his tools and space.

He has a DeVilbiss FinishLine gravity feed gun, which he recently bought.  He dosen't like it though. Trouble getting it to spray "right".
I cannot find where I wrote the model number down to look it up thigh. Will do that tonight.  I though it did pretty good, when I dropped the prssure down, which makes me suspect it might be HVLP. Only used it for primer though (high solids, laquer primer).  Finishline gun is their cheap entry gun, good for primer, takes a while to get used to the HVLP guns. You should buy him one of those Sharpe closeout guns or buy one for yourself to use, can't beat the price.

What's the difference in the min-gun and the full size gun, that make you steer clear of the ones HarborFreight has while using their mini-gun?



I do just fine with the cheap mini gun, problem with the cheap stuff is that it doesn't last with repeated use, I used my old mini gun when I sprayed my wheels and on that wheelhousing patch job,  handy for small projects and spot repair.

Believe me, those cheap guns won't atomize the paint as well as a pro gun.

You can use a dedicated cheaper gun for primer, a seperate pro gun for bc and another for cc. Everyone has their brand preference, Sharpe, Devillibis or the all mighty Sata that is way overpriced and expensive parts too.  Iwata is a Japanese brand, LVLP, HVLP became the law for shops but I've heard favorable reviews on the Devillibis non HVLP complaint guns.

I really should have bought the Astro cheapo mini gun for like $ 59 bucks I'll see how my little China "Hasbro" $ 15 special works, my $ 10 ones are fine but they wear out after a few years, get hard to clean, subpar metal coatings, the expensive guns are a work of art, top quality, last forever, spray better.

For pro paint work you need a good spray gun, why make life anymore difficult ?

Pooter
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