Holley Projection on a 1966 429 Cadillac

[EZ]

There's a guy on our '65-'66 Cadillac Community forum that has converted his 429 Cadillac to fuel injection.  He says that it runs great.  He used the 2BBL 670 CFM throttle body from Holley.  I'm very interested in this mod.  I would love to get the driveability and startability of F.I. on my old engine when I get the car back together.  Cold starts alone would make this worthwhile.

Go to http://ccof.kapsi.fi/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2100 to read all about it and see the pics.  Sure wish I could read German or Dutch or whatever language this is!!!

"EZ"

[Anthony20485]

Found this link in the holley site.
http://mazda6.kuvat.fi/kuvat/Cadillac/

[bcroe]

I have added fuel injection to some cars, and getting the throttle body bolted
on is just the first step.  Not all EFIs are the same.  The basic problem is matching
the amount of gas to the air.  I would start by checking how the potential EFI
measures the incoming air.  The worst try to estimate fuel by the angle of the
throttle body.  I tried one long ago, it was useless off the track.  A much better
one measures the Manifold Absolute Pressure, MAP.  HOWEVER, these units are
a MAJOR project to program, to the particular engine.  There are some new
units that are supposed to program themselves, potentially a big improvement. 

The easiest add on EFI actually MEASURES the intake air, using a Mass Air Flow
sensor, MAF.  Minimal programing, but may require special air ducting.  And
more expensive. 

That's just fuel management.  Any good EFI has programable spark advance. 
Change your distributor to one controlled by the ECU.  This is always going to
be a manual effort.  More advanced units will have knock sensor/retard included. 
I don't know if there even is hardware to fit a 429, '68 up can borrow from 80s
engines.  Forget points ignitions. 

Then there are things like idle air control.  Certainly this function will need
some manual programming, unless the EFI doesn't include it. 

The OEM systems actually do minor updates to the programming every day,
despite the huge effort from the factory.  Adapts to each engine, and to wear
on that engine.  If your add on EFI gets all this, it should help.  Most don't,
adjust expectations accordingly.  good luck, Bruce Roe  CLC # 14630

[Geoff]

Here is an aftermarket F.I. system from F.A.S.T. that I find interesting but I have not yet talked to them nor done any research into using one in my 472 powered '35.  Has anyone talked to F.A.S.T. about using their system in a Cadillac, particularly a 472/500? 

http://www.fuelairspark.com/ezefi/default.asp?utm_source=EZ_HomePage_Banner_Ad&utm_medium=Banner_Ad&utm_term=Link&utm_content=EZ_HomePage_Banner_Ad&utm_campaign=EZ_HomePage_Banner_Ad

Geoff  

[Carnut]

Re. the 472/500, GM actually offered multiport FI, so you can get one of those manifolds and use a megasquirt controller.

[Geoff]

Yes, but the F.A.S.T. system seems simpler, and it is all new.  Just a pipe dream right now.
Geoff

[73eldo]

I had pretty much that Projection system on a couple of cars.  They appear to be designed for a 1970's-1980's stock to slightly modified 305-350ish engine.  On those engines they just bolt on and it takes maybe 5 minutes to get it to idle and a couple times around the block to get the rest of the tune in and you are done.  I put one on a stock 425.  It took a little more tweaking than on the 350 but I was overall happy with the way it ran.  I then moved the same system to a 500 and never really got it to run and idle with the same settings.  It always seemed to need some tweaking.  I ended up putting a Megasquirt ECU on it and got it running pretty well that way.  One thing I did with the MS was disconnect the EGR.   I suspect if I had tried to disconnect the EGR with the old ECU I may have had a better chance of getting it to run.  Some day I want to try hooking the EGR back up because disconnecting it required me to add a ton of fuel so I suspect once I learn how to best control it that it would save fuel.   The Holley ECU was easy to tune its just got 5 dials on it.  They are labeled the same as the Holley carbs.   Just like the Holley carbs you can just fiddle with them till it seems to run pretty good.   Just like Holley carbs you usually end up running a little on the rich side most of the time so you dont end up saving any gas.   Starting and overall running is great.




The stock Cadillac systems on the 500's and 425's were not that common because it was always an option.  The 350 version was more common because it was the standard system on the Sevilles.   This means a 500/425 system is going to be more difficult / expensive to find in the first place.   Next problem is getting / keeping it running.   Since they were never that common there was never tons of parts floating around for them.   The ECU's had problems but there are people (like Bruce) that can repair them and make a few mods to make them more reliable.   At that point if you are lucky you have a stock system that can make a stock engine run decent as long as none of those rare almost 40 year old parts fail.  Seems like a lot of work and risk for anything but an original car that someone wants to keep original.   

The TBI systems get you easy installation at usually a lower cost and many of the benefits of EFI.   Multiports tend to be more flexible as far as the range of power they can operate in and also have tons more options when it comes to sizes and types of injectors.   Multiports inject the fuel close to the intake valve so you dont have the issues of the fuel coming out of the air as it makes its twists and turns from the throttle body so in theory more of the fuel is going to end up where you want it when you want it there.  Multiport can also be sequential injected which means the injection event for each cylinder is timed when the valve is opened.  Again the theory is that if you time that correctly the fuel will be added to the air as it flows into the cylinder you wont be wasting any.   On a modern engine a lot of effort goes into the placement of the injector along with the rest of the intake system.  In a retrofit situation we usually dont have many options where the injector is going to end up and cant usually do much with the way the air moves through the intake and into the head so you wont likely end up with a fully optimized system.  Im not saying it wont be better than a TBI but dont expect it to be as good as a modern OE system that was designed from the ground up to be injected.

Except for the ultimate performance apps I dont really see a huge difference in the performance between a TBI and multioprt.   Most of the improvements and apparent gains are going to come from the control / ecu system.  As Bruce said there are quite a few different levels and types of systems.   That analog Holley Projection only knows throttle position and rpm.  Its making several assumptions to guess how much fuel is required.  The Cadillac system was also analog and uses a manifold pressure sensor so its a little better off (closer to what a carb could do) but because of its age just does not have a lot of 'calculating power' to really be able to dial in the required fuel.  Its also batch fired which means you have the injectors being fired in 2 batches.  4 fire at one time then the other 4 so some cylinders the injectors fire at the optimum time and others the fuel gets injected when the valve is closed.  Where you really start getting the gains is with the more modern computer systems that can read from many sensors and make many calculations very quickly based on the conditions.   On older systems the computer just guessed based on relatively few sensors what the fuel should be and then monitored the exhaust (O2 sensor) to see what was actually happening.  Based on that result it would then make changes to hopefully achieve the desired result.  As the systems progressed they started adding more and more sensors like the MAF (mass airflow) so they were no longer just guessing what the engine needed they were usually pretty sure.  They are still checking the result but with more sensors and the learning capabilities they are usually correct the first time.    The ultimate performance (and efficiency) is to operate a system at 99.999999% or 100%.  If you are running at 75% you are wasting something.  If you are at 101% you are out of control.  The more sensors you add and the more times you can check those sensors and make adjustments the better off you are. 

When they design an engine they test it to figure out what the ideal air fuel ratio is for the various conditions.  Idle, cruise, acceleration, ect.  They then use various sensors to judge which situation is called for and thus what air fuel ratio is required.   The MAF (mass airflow) sensor measures the volume of the air and the IAT (intake air temp) sensor measures the temp of the incoming air which when coupled with the BRO? (barometric pressure) sensor tells the computer the density of the air.   At this point the computer knows exactly how much air it has to work with and what the air fuel ratio goal is so all it has to do is inject the correct amount of fuel and it should work perfectly.  In the case of a flex fuel car there is the discriminator that tries to gauge the quality of the fuel its going to get so it does not have to learn it based on the O2 readings after its burned.  Now reading this may make you think about all those super duper cold air intakes and crap they sell.   Guess what they are all crap UNLESS you are operating under extreme conditions like a very high altitude or get every tiny bit of possible performance out of your engine like in a race type of situation.  Because of those 3 sensors the computer can keep the optimum mix going through a wide range of conditions.  Its not till you get to the upper range of operation that you could run out of air.  How often do most people operate in those conditions?  I would bet almost never if ever.   Even then if you have your megga intake and filters and you do allow more air to get in is the computer going to know what to do with it or is it even possible to add more fuel to match the extra air?  Doubt it with the stock system.  You have to have the computer know what to do with more air and have the ability to deliver more fuel to have it do any good.  Ok minor rant over, back to topic.  Another thing the modern systems do is run the timing right at that 99.999% before detonation.   They then have the knock sensor listen for the early signs of detonation and when they sense that they back off a bit and then note that setting for future reference.  The entire engine is filled with little sub systems like this that keep things living on the edge.  They are then adding systems like that to the rest of the car which is what makes even a inexpensive crap box a pretty decent ride now days.                 

[arska66]

Hi EZ
The language is Finnish ( Finland) land of Finlandia vodka and Santa Claus 

[EZ]

Thanks arska66.  I was just showing my ignorance by guessing what language it was.    Is this your car that I posted the links to?
Looks like a modification I'd like to try.  I'm not interested in spending $3000.00 to get a computerized F.I. system that will give me every last bit of HP from the engine or every last mile from every ounce of fuel.  I mainly want it to start good when cold and run good.  I don't want to spend any more than I would for a professionally rebuilt Quadrajet carb.  I have basically the same Holley Projection system shown in the article.  I bought it off Ebay for $250.00.    If I can get it adjusted so the car runs good I'll be happy.  I was only getting 10 MPG before I took the car completely apart anyway.  ANYTHING would be an improvement!! 

[Geoff]

 "I was only getting 10 MPG before I took the car completely apart anyway.  ANYTHING would be an improvement!!"

   Bottom line!
Geoff

[arska66]

No it's not my car, but he is Finnish like me, here's link
 http://cadillacclub.fi/

[EZ]

No it's not my car, but he is Finnish like me, here's link
 http://cadillacclub.fi/

I believe I sold the side trim from my '66 Coupe DeVille to a guy in Finland.  Real nice guy.  How'd you boys up in Finland get so many old Cadillacs up there???   

If you have a '66 you should check us out over at http://65-66cadillaccommunity.grou.ps/talks.  We all own 65-66 Cadillacs.  Maybe you could help someone with information on their project or something.  If nothing else it's nice to be able to talk with other people with the same car. 

[arska66]

yes i have 66 cdv , that rusted roof poor thing what you can find in topic : rust rust and more rust.